O2 Eliminator
 

We have just received some advanced information today regarding the O2 Eliminators.

Please read below.

DynoJet have stopped making them as they have realised that according to them this 02 eliminator does not work on the 07 & 08 bikes with the lambda probe. He told me that now all PCIII for the 07 and 08 models comes with a warning that people must just disconnect the Lambda probe and not map the fuelling around the 2K mark (I think he means the rev rage of 2000 revs) The fault comes not from the Lambda but from the ECU fitted to the 07 & 08 bikes which causes them to surge. DynoJet has reported this fault to Yamaha and they think that Yamaha might reprogramme the ECU's to rectify the problem, however Simon doesn't think they will do and suggest that all Dyno testers must keep this in mind when designing a map for these range of bikes.

Freez & myself will carry out some tests soon. If the O2 Eliminator is not at fault, I cant see why they no longer what to fit them. I know the software is not right in my 07 model, I reported this on my last dyno run as I can't get my air/fuel ratio perfect in lower rpms. It is not bad I would say 95% perfect.

We will amend the necessary threads relating to this O2 Eliminator.

well thats weird, after i asked you about it yesyerday, i will await the results with anticipation....

I have a 08 xtx and have just fitted a pc3 does this mean the 06-07 maps won't work properly ?

Cam147, If I knew this information on Friday when you asked me I would have told you. This information only arrived with me yesterday Saturday night Oz time & I posted the news ASAP. I could not tell you if I did not know.

As I said in the first post above We have just received some advanced information today regarding the O2 Eliminators.

On this forum we try to keep up with the latest information & procedures. Things may change from time to time, this 07 XT has even fooled a major company like Dyno Jet & they are the masters on tuning bikes.

So please don't shoot the messenger. If I knew this before hand I would not have 20 sets of O2 Eliminators sitting on my desk. Once you get to know me better Cam147 you find I do not beat around the bush, if I make a mistake or have mislead someone I will be the first one to correct my statement as I believe in facts not bull sh*t.

Yes Paul 06 maps will not work correctly on a 07/08 bike.

Kev,

Blimey mate. Thats a little worrying indeed. Lets hope YAM listen to the dyno-jet team. If not, i will be very keen to understand what you and Freez propose going forward as i am keen to get mine back to the dyno testers. However, given this latest update i will hang back and see what you guys propose.

Thanks for the advanced warning

Cheers

WB

Mate I will be contacting Dyno Jet directly to gather further information & then onto Yamaha Japan.

They remapped the 04 models so I can't see why they won't do the 07/08 models.

The only thing that confuses me is there only seems to be a hand full of 07 models with very bad surging, I know there was a difference between my two 07 ECU's as I have air/fuel ratio print outs on the dyno of both ECU's & they are quite different in the mid to low ranges & both have the same software level.

Thanks kev

does anybody know where i can get an 08 map from please

kev, quick question.

Did you check that information with Dynojet themselves?

My mate had a 07 and we did a lot of testing on it, with and without the O2sensor.

He ran the bike for a few months with the O2 eliminator in and it went just fine. We did however make a custom map for his bike.

Freez,

The way it happened is like this, last Friday, I was talking to Simon Cope, owners of Carbon Cans Co., who is also an authorized retailer for DynoJet products, he has a dyno test machine in his workshop to tune his new cans to all different bikes, furthermore he was trained by dynojet officially with diploma et all.

However Simon told me that he wanted me to remove the advert to the O2 eliminator from our website because he was told by DynoJet that they will not be shipping these as they found them not to be working for the 07/08 models of the Yamaha XT660X/R.

The tests done to these bikes with the 02 eliminator and a PCIII showed no improvement in the surging issue of the 07/08 models and this problem is directly related to the ECU of these bikes which has proven to be incorrectly mapped.

For that reason DynoJet have told Simon that all new PCIII sold for the 07/08 model will have a warning label telling people simply to disconect the Lambda Probe, and not map the fuelling at the 2K range which seem to be the best compromise for the time being.

DynoJet will wait until Yamaha finds a solution to the erratic mapping issue with their ECU before they will re-introduce the distribution of the 02 eliminator.

So for the time being the ball is entirely in Yamaha's court.

For the exact same reasons, Kev has decided also not sell his 02 eliminator until a viable solution to this problem is found by Yamaha.

Rest assured that Kev will enquire with Yamaha, and he believes that if they've succesfully remapped the 04-06 ECU's that there should be no reason for it to be done to the new bikes too.

The note in the pc3 box i receved last friday says
2007-2008 xt660 euro modle pc 412-411

Due to the close loop emission system used on this bike it is not possible to make fuel changeswith the power commander between 3500 and 6000 rpm ,below20% throttle

And it is not recommended to disconnect the o2 sensor on these bikes

Thanks Paul so now we know exactly what DynoJet is issuing as a warning, many many thanks for letting us know.

This will help Kev further

Well done dude! :clap: :clap:

Capt,

I have to agree with Freez's earlier post on this subject. Mine is running much much better with the lamdba disconnected as when its connected it appears to be fighting between the YAM engine mgmt system and the PC3.

However, in a PM to Kev i will await the true experts advice on this. I have emailed Dyno-Jet UK directly on this subject as i know one of the main men there, so hopefully we can try to understand the issue and lets see that if its a YAM problemo that they look to remap their s/w

Fingers crossed one and all.

Cheers

WB

I am a bit confused with Dyno jets statement. The problem is between 10 to 20% throttle 2200 to 3800RPM, not 3500 to 6000rpm, you can map this area with no problems.

It's not that I don't trust what CCC is saying, I just like to know all the facts.

Let me just warn you, that there are different types of PCIII's.

You get a road legal version (PCIII EX) and a race version. The road legal versions have limitations and will not allow you to remap certain RPM ranges. They made this so riders cannot mess around with the emission law regulations and make the bikes illegal to ride on the road. Maybe they introduced this with the new XT PCIII's.

If you read the race version instructions, or the normal PCIII we have been using for a few years now, you will see it is not road legal and must only be used for racing where emission laws do not apply.

I was under the impression that the road legal versions will not allow you to map anything below 4000 RPM, but anyway, that�s what I thought, might be wrong and differ from bike to bike.

The race version you can do what you like with and map any RPM and throttle range.

Some things still don't make any sense here.

One side say to disconnect and another say to leave it plugged in.

Disconnecting it and not running the O2 eliminator will most likely bring up an error message on the XT and also send the ECU to run some sort of default fuel map or something like that.

The O2 eliminator is only there to give the ECU a fixed reference point to do your mapping from and to prevent an alarm.

Leaving it in might cause the ECU to override anything the PCIII tells it, so making the PCIII useless for certain RPM ranges. That I can understand, but if this is where to bogging comes from, it will remain there.

Sure the bogging is caused by either ignition of fueling and if it is fuel related, then the PCIII should sort it out, assuming you can disconnect the O2 sensor and preventing the ECU from trying to make constant changes and you use the race version of the PCIII.

I think we are dealing with multiple issues here.

One, could the new PCIII's be the EX versions or running the EX software preventing us from mapping certain RPM ranges and the bog remains, or is there something else involved. Maybe they want you to remain road legal so they are forcing you to use the O2 sensor.

I cannot understand why the O2 sensor removal will cause the bog if the fueling is right. If you can set up the fueling correctly with the PCIII, it is right and any bog must be caused by something else.

The O2 sensor is basically a resistor that remains fixed and provide a fixed reference for the ECU. Why is the fixed reference causing a problem? It makes no sense to me.

In my mind, if there is a bog, and it is caused by the stock ECU providing the incorrect amount of fuel to the motor. To fix it you have to remove the O2 sensor, force the ECU to use a fixed map, since the reference never changes and then remap it with a PCIII race version to get the fuel delivery correct.

If the fuel is right and there is still a bog, then the only other thing that can cuase it is ignition.

A reply from Dyno Jet today.

While testing this bike over the last month or so it has become apparent we cannot disable the O2 sensor with the eliminators we already have, we also found just disconnecting the O2 sensor caused a lot of problems, chiefly the bike will cycle very rich during cruise situations.

We are currently working on a solution, however as it isn't going to be an immediate answer we have decided to release the XT660 power commanders with a note attached explaining that:



"Due to the close loop emission system used on the above bikes it is not possible to make fuel changes with the power commander between 3500 and 6000 RPM, below 20% throttle.
It is not recommended to disconnect the O2 sensor on these bikes."

The surging in caused by the bike running too lean during cruise situations. We have not "contacted Yamaha".

Hope this clears a few things up.

Martin.
Dynojet UK
01995 600500
www.dynojet.co.uk
************************************************** ************************************************** *****************
When I get on the Dyon next I will do some testing with the PCIII. I do not think I will be running my O2 sensor with my PCIII for now, it does not make sence to me.

Ok, one thing sorted out.

So you have to run with the O2 sensor plugged in.

Now the next question.

Kev, you built the O2 sensor eliminators. Did you use pure resistors in it or does it contain other electronics also?

I am not sure what output the XT O2 sensor provides, but if the ECU is needing a voltage, then I can understand why the resistors are not working. If we need a voltage instead of resisitance then it should be a simple matter to sort out.

All we need to do is figure out what voltage that O2 sensor sends out at an A/F ratio of 13:1.

Once we know the voltage, all we do is build a little voltage regulator and we send a constant voltage back to the ECU, tricking it into thinking the O2 sensor is working correctly.

It will be cheap to build and since we have voltage going to the sensor anyway, we can use that to power the voltage regulator.

I found this info on another O2 sensor.

http://wbo2.com/2a0/svout.gif

If the output of the Xt's sensor is simmelar, all we need to do is build a regulator with a constant 2.2V output and the job is done.

It is easy to make the voltage regulator as that was what I was going to do before I saw what Dyno jet was doing with their O2 Eliminators.

The problem lies deeper then we think, I think the problem occurs when the TPS is around the 15% & the ECU switches between closed loop & open loop position.

What I want to try first is move the TPS to different postions & reset the zero postion everytime on the PCIII to see if it move the surging around the rev & throttle postion range.

I see.

Does the ECU go from open to closed loop at around 15% or closed to open.

The question still remains as to why some XT's surge and some don't. If the all run the same ECU's and software then let's remove that from the list of problems.

This leaves me with the following.

Did they have a bad batch of O2 sensors, where some sensors had a different output voltages or that the output tolerance on these sensors are to wide that it causes wrong inputs to the ECU or maybe it is the fuel or some of the other sensors on the bike causing problems.

On the 700Raptors I have had a lot of them with TPS sensors going faulty, so maybe it comes from the TPS itself.

Kev, you mentioned that you had 2 XT's and one would surge and the other not. Where both mapped with the tuninglink and both had the o2 sensors removed???

Anyway, lets see what you find.

Hi guys

Anymore news on this issue?

I fitted the Kev mod at the weekend and the sensor eliminator. (Very well made Mod Kev, Thanks.) :notworthy[1]:


Should I refit the sensor or not? I'm quite happy to fit it back in but will it mess with the Kev Mod?

Kev is running some tests and he will reply to you in due time. If the bike is running fine then it's one less thing for you to worry, rest assured that with or without it connected there will be no damage to your bike.

Cheers

I am going to do some tests soon.

I want to recheck the O2 sensor voltage out put using an Osiliscope again, but on the dyno under load at 15% throttle to gauge the voltage.

With this info it will help me make a voltage regulator & we will see if I can fix the surge.

I know the voltage with the bike running at 3000RPM, but not under load. :YellowCrazy_J8GDC6:

the tps vs open/closed loop seems to explain the surging then ?
Im guessing that when you are at 3-4k rpm under little load (motorway etc) the you would be at about 15% tps. My dealer mentioned that changing the tps zero point could move the "surge" so ....

Hopefully Kevs works on the eliminator will be applicable to us aprillia 650 riders too !

just put a deposit down on an 09 XTX.... i sold my 05 one a while ago for this problem... i cant belive yamaha havent sorted this out yet. It worrying me a little, i love the XT but my old one ran really nasty.

Just wondered, i have a Yamaha FZ1 and they suffered with bad jerking problems too... this was sorted but stopping the secondary throttle flies from shutting off, dont spose the XT has them????

Hi there cdo1uk, :welcome: back to :660: and congratulations on your new bike.

There is no secondary throttle butterly I am sure Kev will be able to confirm.

Don't knock the bike before you get it, rest assured you have nothing to worry about, the surging that some of the new owners have experienced was down to poor setup from the dealership, i.e. low idleing speed, incorrect tps position, slack chain, but once these are set up properly you have a much more reliable bike.

Show us some pics as soon as you get it.

thanks for that... im really looking forward to getting it.

The 09 XTX has a new ECU with reported improvements with surging over the 07/08 models from 09 owners.

I was at one of the Yamaha dealers on Saturday asking if they could get me a new XTX 09 model, we will see this week what they say. If I can't get a new 09 XTX my XT adventure will soon be coming to a forced end. Yamaha Australia have said no more XTX's to be imported.

I,m a bit confused now.i need my bike to run good at speeds 30mph and under, for a long offroad trip.
will a powercommander cure the surging at these speeds ,or not.above 35/40mph the bike runs really well.?

Oh , its an 07 model 660r.

A power commander will help but will not cure the surge.

Thanks kev ,thats saved me a few guid.
Is there anything i can do?

There are many things one can do to improve the ride at low rpms, but on 100% cure using the 07 ECU.

This is what I did on my 07 XT to get rid of the surge.

http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?t=8478

Thanks mate ,now decision time.

just tried the co1 mod upped by 5 did,nt make any difference ,so i put it back to standard. now when i put it in gear the engine cuts out.
i,ve checked the sidestand switch, seems like i,ve done some damage
now what to do ???

HELP !!!!!!!!

Just gone outside to try again, and alls well. Grrrrr i hate computers.

You can not do any damage to the ECU by adjusting the CO1. Check your side stand switch & clutch leaver switch with a meter.

Ok, a simple question. How would i know, what was the default setting for my bikes CO1? I remember someone from Yamaha fiddled with those settings, but the have no records what it was before. So im not sure if they changed the numbers or not. I dont dare to modify my settings yet.

You would not know unless someone recorded the numbers before changing them. Most are set between 0 & 15 in CO1 as standard.

If I can get all the stuff together, I may be making a few O2 eliminators as I had to buy things in bulk so once I get everything together, I'll make a load and then should someone need one I might be able to supply.

May include the 18mm 1.5mm bungs too to block the hole where the lambda is if theres interest.


:titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]::titflash[1]:


By the way Kev, my makeshift eliminator made from the old camera docking station parts seems to have done the job so ill make a proper one to go on there and make up the rest.

Bike no longer rides like a bucking bronco and more like a bucking alsation...

I would be very interested in this :nod: