Surging...sorry
 

Right I've been trying to decide whether to post this or not as I know the surging and bad fuelling of the other XT's was documented. In the last 100miles (bike is at 1450) I've started to experience a slight surge with the bike on a steady throttle. It initially occurred at the dreaded 3000rpm and is obvious there as that's 30mph in 3rd gear, so I'm there quite often. Then I started to notice it at 4000rpm and also 5000rpm.
It's nowhere near as bad as the Caponord was before I used Tuneboy to remap the ECU, but it is noticeable, and it is annoying. Has anyone else had it?
I'm loath to take my bike back to the dealers unless I really have to as last time it went in in came back leaking oil and with spongy front brakes.

I've felt what I can best describe as a slight hesitation on a constant throttle once or twice in the last week or so. I put this down to FI adjusting itself to air temp or some other variable momentarily.

Only felt it in top gear cruising at 65 to 70mph, it hesitates a couple of times(that running out of fuel feeling) and then everything is smooth again.

I am not sure if this is of much help. Firstly, no, I haven't experienced the kind of surging you are talking about. However, when I start the bike and let the bike warm up a couple minutes, especially after a cold night (and I leave the bike outside as I don't have a garage), I could hear small clicking sounds along with the sounds as if the throttle is adjusting itself gently. I think this is where the fuel injections are at work. In addition, I have got into the habit of reving it up to over 4000rpm a couple times during the warmup. I read it somewhere it's good for the bike especially on cold start. At the end of the warmup, the clicking sound subsides and the engine sound stabilizes. If I don't let the bike warm up properly, the idling speed is on the high side closer to 2000rpm rather than 1500rpm as indicated in the manual. After a while, the idling speed would go back to normal. Still, I have not experienced the surging you are talking about. My point is that if you haven't done so, perhaps warming up the bike first would help? Just a wild guess.

I still think that the best way to warm up a bike is to ride it. At idle speed, the oil pump is turning slowly and the pressure is low. While driving the oil heat up gently and is ciculating a lot faster in your engine. Reving it up without loading it, not my peace of cake. But, hey that me :icon_colors:.

The surging issue, i think all modern (environmental friendly) FI bikes used to do this, some more than others. I can live with it.

Sounds a lot like what I had when I'd had the bike for a similar mileage. I was concerned that my Tenere might have FI issues (this is my first bike mind).

Anyway, turns out it was just my chain getting too loose! The manual specs have the chain a lot looser than on other bikes (confirmed by my mechanic) and after having it serviced by my dealer the setting they used was just loose enough to give this effect after my 6000 service. I tightened it myself afterwards by a small amount (once accessable twist on the adjusting nut with a spanner) and it was enough to get rid of this effect. Needless to say overtightening a chain is worse than having it too loose so don't try that either :)
The chain should just be able to touch the swingarm if you push it up (without having to press too firmly) based on my dealers adjustments and my modification to clear the jerkiness.

It is particuarly noticable on a low constant throttle (30 mph in 3rd particuarly) which seems to be what you've had, and results in the bike jerking around a lot and a delay in takeup of speen when you open the throttle.

Of course if I am teaching you to suck eggs then feel to throw them back at me :)

No egg sucking happening here ;) I admit I was looking at the Mikuni TM38 in the shed and wondering if I could convert the Ten to carb mind!
I've already checked the brakes to see if they were dragging and they were fine. The chain was looking a little slack last night but I'll check again in daylight and report back. Cheers for the ideas.

I experience a slight surging at 5000rpm, but don't find it annoying... i just settle for a bit higher (or lower) cruising speed.

I do suspect it might be related to ambient temperature, and will monitor this behaviour when temperatures go up...

Still think it's one of the best running big singles...

HJ

I would never rev my cold motor to 4000 rpm during warm up. The most wear in a motor takes place during warm up faze until every component has expanded to it's running clearance. By reving the motor when cold you rapidly heat up the piston & with the cylinder still cold you can cause piston to cylinder damage, I have seen this first hand many times.

If you run the motor to long at stand still during warm up you get fuel dilution in the oil, due to a very rich fuel mixture during the warm up faze.

I would recommend one to only warm up a motor for max 30 second then ride the bike with low rev's & nothing above 3000 rpm for the first mile or two until the motor is at running temp.

The cold start idle up valve is adjustable, so if the bike idles at 2000 rpm during cold starting, adjust the valve so it idles at 1750 rpm when cold. The bike should not idle at 1500 from a cold start it should be around the 1750 mark, how long it idles at that rpm depends on the what temp the idle valve thermostst is at.

Where to adjust the cold idle up valve. This done on the left side of the throttle body, remove the black blanking plug to get to the nut.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...x/DSCF2164.jpg

Today, outside temperature 6-8 degrees, on my commuting trip I took some special notice on the 5000rpm surge.... there was none... smooth as ....whatever. So my impression is that it seems to be related to outside temperature.

Again: it's not a problem ... it's behaviour.... call it character.... buy a inline 4 if you want smoothness (or an electric scooter!).

HJ

Thanks Kev. I will try out your method then.

Just a post-note to say that the bike feels better post chain adjustment. It didn't need much, literally one swing of the spanner.

No eggs here - I too have had similar 'problems' - at first I thought it was the crappy 85 octane fuel here in the US (actually I try to use super the whole time, but that's only 91, or 93 in Florida)... however, looking at the state of my cush drive now (it's pretty shagged), I too would say it is more to do with driveline snatch than actual fueling itself - 30mph in 3rd is pretty low revs, so the inherant lumpness of a single at low revs is going to exaggerated through a loose drive line, my chain/sprockets are fine, but I can rotate my cush drive a good quarter of an inch when it's stationary... time for new rubbers when I get home...

xxx

with the bike on the sidestand or centrestand?

Thanks
Pete

I was delaying adding to this thread, as I've been getting a 'lumpyness' of late. I was pretty sure it must be wear somewhere as It's been getting progressivly worse.

My chain tension is fine, thanks to the Scottoiler (apart from when the new tyre went on it's needed no adjustment at all in 10,500 miles) but the slack in the cush rubbers is about 10 -15mm, or 1/2-3/4 inch. I ordered some new ones earlier in the week.

JMo has summed up the problem perfectly. Funny though, as the TTR hasn't had any such problem with the cush rubbers and it get's a whole load more abuse!

Centrestand, or paddock stand (if you have one) as it takes the weight off the suspension. At least that's how I have done it. It also makes things MUCH easier for rotating the back wheel to check tension all over the chain.

Would people be all that interested in some pictures or a video of this? (There are general videos about adjusting your chain on youtube but the slack amount they show are far too tight for the tenere)

Interesting. I always set my slack with me sat on the bike. I found that if I set it on the sidestand, as soon as the bike was off the sidestand the suspension sag eliminated almost all the slack, and once I was on it was tight. I know that for long travel suspension more slack is needed than a normal bike.

edit to add- the paddock stand WON'T take the weight off your suspension like a centre stand, as it locates on the swinging arm so immediately the weight of the bike is acting through the suspension.

The official manual gives figures with it adjusted on the sidestand.

Ultimatly it does not matter how you set the slack as long as it is correctly adjusted so I will be taking my dealer recommendation as a basis and then making the actual adjustments on the centrestand as that's easiest.

Yeah I noticed that too and was surprised

Without wanting to sound all techno-nerdy, that's probably to do with torque loading/power pulses from a big 660 single cylinder vs. a 250... there is much more torque in the Tenere of course...

xxx

If I may be so contradictory JMo ;) my DR600 had no problems with cush drive rubbers and is listed as same bhp as the Ten. It is 50kg lighter though.

Sorry, didn't give you enough info -> TT600RE

Hence the wondering.......

Ah, fair enough... I can only imagine the Tenere cush rubbers must be made of cheese then...

xxx

If it's any consolation, when I had my Guzzi V11 one of the hot topics was always that the cush drive rubbers were too hard and there were many ways of drilling, replacing etc them to improve things! :bricks: :)

Cool, I've a nice bottle of Port downstairs when I replace them I'll have a bite to see :hahaha[1]:

Hee hee - sadly they are more Dairylea triangles than a nice wedge of mature cheddar...

xxx

As an update to this I am going in for a 9000 mile oil change at the dealer this Friday and have mentioned the surging to my dealer and he's going to have a bit of a look at it while I'm in.

It was a bit colder today on my commute (1-4 degrees celcius) and I was paying more attention to it but I was aware of the surging at all speeds and in all gears. It seems to be much more noticable in low gear and high revs however (2nd gear at 40mph ish is a nightmare for instance). Obviously this means I am being pushed to keep the revs down and keep in a high gear. Good for economy, bad for fun (doubaly so as it's still a distraction)

As an update to my last post I've been going through checking everything I can on the bike and there's a really tight spot on the chain. From what I understand a link or two is normal but I seem to have half a dozen links that are significantly tighter than anywhere else on the chain. Googling other forums tells me I have found the cause of my uneven running, plus my sprockets and cush drive appear to be in otherwise perfect nick.
I'll be calling my dealer in the morning to check they have a spare chain they can fit when I go in.

I'd be curious to know what could cause such a tight spot on the chain though?

Surge/poor rideabilty
 

I'm sorry but I cannot accept the surging/poor rideabilty in traffic of the XT - Yamaha need to sort it out! If I am maintaining a constant throttle opening I expect the engine revs to remain constant too, particularly when flowing in 30mph traffic!!

Have read previous threads accepting this problem as a trait to big singles, have owned old Xt's (even on old SR500!) & not experienced this fault before.

Temperature is not an issue as I have travelled in excess of 50 miles & still experienced the problem, originally I thought it was down to chain tension but a check absolved this.

Therefore, I think that the problem lies with the fuel injection system; given that previous carburettor models were fine.

Bike is due in for a first service next week & I will be making some noise at the dealers, I know it aint fueling right- getting better MPG out of my Shogun!!

To be continued................................... :icon_clown:

I can sympathise with your frustration Outtashape - but just for clarification, you are talking about the XTX (presumably the bike in you avatar picture?) and not the XTZ Tenere - this thread is in the XT660Z section?

I understood the other XT bikes did/do have fueling problems, whereas Yamaha have all but eradicated those on the XTZ - whether it is simply the bigger airbox, a different ECU or any combination of factors...

I'm only saying this as I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to get the wrong impression, that's all...

I hope you can get it sorted... or buy a Tenere x

xxx

Dealer changed the chain earlier (got a DID X-Ring 520VM110) and I was totally blown away by how much difference it made.

My bike now feels totally smooth, almost feels like a different bike, and made me remember how good it felt riding my bike home from the showroom the first day i got it nearly 6 months ago.

Cush drive and sprockets were ok so were not changed

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9...ngchain.th.jpg

So based on my experience, if you're getting surging/hesitation on the Tenere it could be your chain (with the extra slack required due to the suspension I guess the Tenere is quite sensitive to it being well adjusted and in good order)

Never owned a big single before the Ten and am used to multi cylinder bikes however, my Ten (800miles) does surge a tad and feels like its hunting on a constant throttle at around 30mph. Have checked chain tension and tried different fuels (BP ultimate, normal octane and Shell higher octane stuff), the bike still surges. Its not a massive amount but it does impact on rideability and it therefore encourages a more 'enthusiastic' riding style to avoid constant throttle/low-mid rpm running...
Personally i put it down to fuel injection. I feel that manufacturers going over to FI is a move backwards and causes as many problems as it claims to solve..
I'll see how the bike fares as the miles accumulate and it 'breaks in' more. Its a shame because otherwise the Ten is a lively and fun bike..

I particuarly noticed the problem at 30mph or so, mostly when filtering past traffic on the m/way. It got so bad for me that I almost stopped filtering as I just was not comfortable, i pretyt much had to stay in 3rd gear as the surgins was too bad in 2nd (about 4k rpm).
I even for the the problem at 85mph, just over 5k rpm once I was at a constant steady speed, bike was still lurching.

Like you I rode more enthusiasticaly to mask the problem but it was still there. Also I woudl have blamed the FI for the same reason, just seemed to get worse as time went on until I could harldy bear it anymore.
I went on a ride with my Mrs last weekend (her on her Honda Sh300 scooter) on lots of back roads and while she was loving it I was hating every minute because of the surging. I had not been all that looking forward to a ride together this Monday for the same reason but I have no qualms whatsoever now.

What I don't know yet however is if the Tenere caused the problem on the chain (9k miles with a scotoiler) or perhaps if the oem chains arn't up to the job. I've got a DID chain as I mentioned above now though so I should have my answer in another 4-6 months.

BTW my dealer mentioned they have had a lot more chains being replaced this winter than normal so the extra salt on the roads could account for a lot of the problem

I'll make sure to specify the best chain and sprocket combo there is come replacement time.. I'm anticipating at least 10k before i need to change them, not sure if thats unrealistic or not.. Or perhaps i'll do what i did on a CBF500 i owned and part ex-ed it before the chain/sprockets were worn out. Hmm, i hear rumours of a 'super tenere', perhaps thats the way forward :icon_biggrin:

2nd gear at 4k rpm = 50kph = bad surging

So it's either 2nd gear and 60/65kph (bad in town)
or 3rd gear and 3k rpm, not very good for engine.

my Ten has 955km on the clock, so I guees the chain can't be blamed really

You see we told you that the 'Racing Gold' version was the best. 7700 smiles and no problems here, except tiime to ride her!:clock:

All the Xt's are very much like this and i would guess this is why most people feel there bike is surging when it isnt really it just alot of chain slack

Unfortunatly mine is the yorkshire gold version! Mine went through the whole of the winter though. Also I think it got sprayed by a fiend with a pressure washer once and there was a period when my scottoiler was empty for a bit so any of those coudl be contributing factors.
As far as I coudl tell the chain linke themselves had not seized, the chain had just worn unevenly with a short length (about a foot) that was tighter than the rest.

maxwell123455: This is my suspicion but I can't generalise from my case alone. I can say that my Ten did seem quite sensitive to chain adjustment but I'll have to see if that stays the same with the new chain as well (as the uneven wear coudl have made this much worse on my old one)

It's worth pointing out to those that thing the Ten does have some FI issues that after also thinking that myself (and things going from noticable to worse to nightmare) that replacing my chain has totally restored the smoothness that was present when new. 30mph + constant speeds in 2nd and now smooth again, as is the engine breaking, even the acceleration is smooth now as well (for a single)

chain slack ---
 

I've got to agree with the above - I wasn't sure at 600 miles if it was the excessive chain slack neccessary with the long travel suspension or the fuel injection that was causing the surging effect when held up by slower traffic. Or even a combination of both - at running in revs it's hard to tell.

With 1750 miles on the clock with some free play adjusted into the throttle cable and the cush drive rubbers shimmed up enough to get rid of the free play there I'm pretty certain it's chain slack that is the root of the problem.

I've got round it by trailing the back brake when rolling off keeping all of the slack in the bottom run of the chain - ok I shouldn't have to do this but I do like a smooth pickup out of corners. :icon_biggrin:

givit

so are you sorted now?

Evolution Cap'n - evolution - the thing that seperates Man & Monkeys. The day we stop evolving is the day they can put us in the box.

The beauty of the Yamaha brand in general is that there is always room for change - not neccessarily for the better but fiddlin is good for the soul :Christo_pull_hair:

If I had wanted a bike that does what it says on the tin - no more no less - I would have bought a Transalp - it was a toss-up between that and a TDM if the Tenere hadn't been available.

So --- 'Am I sorted?' --- No - but I am working towards it :icon_lol:

cheers - givit :walk: