I won't post anything just yet. Simply because I need to have something worthwhile posting!

Currently using 13.4 for low rpm/medium throttle openings and 12.8 for high rpm and WOT.

AIS is blocked off. Used electrical insulation tape over the airbox outlet and then refitted the pipe with the clamp.

How do you know about only being able to use the AFR in high throttle openings? Doesn't that kind of defeat the point of having the autotune?

You can't put the target values in the lower throttle openings because of the surging on the later bikes, it will just confuse the autotune. When Dynojet eventually release the new 02 controller you'll be able to add the values then.

I know because I've been dynoing bikes for the last six years including Billy McConnells Motec equipped Supersport bikes.

Simon

I can vouch for Simon, he know what he is talking about.

The XTX & XTR 07 to present models have been a real challenge. I was also unaware that the Auto tune battled to correct the A/F ratio below 4000rpm.

Really?

Below 4000rpm you say? That an approximate figure or you know that for sure?

If thats the case then ill reset the AFR figures to 4000rpm and leave them blank and try it like that.

That quote was from Dyno Jet Europe, when you buy a PCIII for a 07 XTX or XTR onwards the instructions say to map the bike above 4000rpm. I personly had problems with my 07 fueling jection mapping below 3500rpm. Have a look at the A/F ratio you will see what I mean.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...ore7200RPM.jpg

Ok then, I'll be honest, I'm lost!

I always thought that the idea of fitting a Power commander, fuel mods etc, was to get rid of the low end surging and to improve the fueling over the base map.

Now your saying that its not mapped that low? so how do you get rid of the surgin?!

All the maps that I've downloaded to my PC5 all had inputted data from 1750rpm right the way to the red line. But if they say they don't map below 4000rpm, how could that be?

Adding a fuelling device does help with the surging, the open loop circuit is to lean & shows improvements when extra fuel is added. The closed loop is were we have no control over, believe me I have tried every trick in the book to try to take control over the closed loop & so far no one in the world has been able to do it yet or show us how to do it. Dyno Jet claim to have a controller soon to be released, until then we are in the dark.

We are not alone, I was contacted this past week by a Yamaha dealer to have a look at a XJ6S for them, which has been recently released in Australia with the same characteristic's as the XT660X/R surging. Yamaha Australia have said to the customer that's the way they are, it is a design characteristic.

This was one of the very reasons why I back dated my 07 ECU with O2 sensor to a 2005 ECU with no O2 sensor, I wanted full mapping control over the fuel injection, especially with my 700 conversion. http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?t=8478

I have spent many hours on the dyno trying to map the 2500 to 3500 rpm range of my 07 XTX, there was an improvement over the standard mapping using the Power Commander, all I am saying is it was not perfect. Dyno Jet Europe stated not to remap under 4000rpm not me.

Hopefully once Dyno Jet release the O2 controller we will have better control over the closed loop circuit.

You guys need to be very careful here.

A lot of factors are not taken into consideration here and you need to understand them before trying to chase a problem that might not be there.

1st, Kev, regarding your dyno report with the bike running rich and lean before settling down from a A/F ratio point of view.

Are you using Dynojet's Tuninglink to map the bike or doing it manually? Manually is not recommended and you will see why.

One of the things I have learned over time is to ignore what you see on the power run as posted by the dyno report. Reason being is that the bike when mapped with tuninglink it is under load. Quite a lot actually, plus it is normally done in 4th gear. The motor very slowly accelerates from say 2000 RPM to the limiter under these conditions and the fuel is mapped accordingly. That is similar to real life conditions.

When you do a power run, you hook up 4th, max out the throttle and hold on. No load is applied to the rear wheel. The bike picks up RPM much quicker and it's fuel demand and airflow is very different to what will happen under normal riding conditions. Under quick, no load acceleration runs, the fuel map is always chasing the RPM range and is always lacking behind to some degree. So what you see on the dyno run will hardly ever happen in real life.

So, it looks wrong on the power run, but it's not. Do you understand what I am saying here. So don't go and try to fix that rich and lean condition, because all you will do is fix it to read right on the dyno, but mess it up for when you ride. And yes, you might even pick up Horsepower and torque, but again, you are chasing conditions that are dyno related and not real life. Dial in a lot of load on the dyno and do a power run again and see what I am talking about here. The A/F ratio will be different under load than without it.

Also, a lot of guys forget that the accelerator pump is active when they build the map with tuninglink. When the computer builds a map, the accelerator pump does not really matter because the run takes so long, the pump stopped adding fuel long before the tuning software does it's bit. When you dyno the bike for power and no load, the accelerator pump is active and it can mess with the A/F readings, causing people to bark up the wrong tree.

Now the same thing will happen when you are using the Auto tuner. The bike never accelerates the same when you ride it. Some days you pull off at a steep hill and the next time at an uphill. That requires different amounts of fuel, plus people don�t stay at a fixed RPM and throttle input for a long time to allow the tuner to learn and adjust IT just takes a stab at it and it messes things up. Rider input is never the same, so the tuner tries to compensate, but gets it wrong because human input gets in the way.

There are a few things one can do, but it still does not fix everything on the XT.

On superbikes, I build a fuel map for each gear, allowing the auto tuner to map the fuel map for each gear. This is great because in the lower gears where the bike accelerates quicker it will eventually build a special fuel map that is different to the fuel map at the same RPM and TPS settings in taller gears.

Also, do not give the Auto tuner a lot of flexibility and if possible do not let it map lower PRM ranges. There are too many variables at low RPM to allow the tuner to do it�s tuning correctly.

I said this before, do not allow the auto tuner to make massive changes. The less it is allowed to change the better. It comes back to having the bike tuned correctly on a dyno 1st, where conditions, load and throttle input is controlled and then only let the Auto tuner do fine tuning.

People believe that the Auto tuner means that you don't need to go to the dyno. WRONG!!!.. Very wrong. It causes all kinds of problems if it does not have a good map to start of with.

Also, even after tuning it on the dyno and riding it around for a week, it still needs someone who understand what is happening to decide which values suggested by the Auto tuner to accept and which to ignore. This is not a magic bullet for tuning problems.

In some cases it will cause a lot more problems than what it fixes.

Don�t get me wrong, it�s a great device, but you have to programme and use it correctly.

Most of the problems with the newer XT seem to happen on a light throttle opening and very little load so mapping the bike in steady state in Tuning Link won't highlight the problems because the dyno is always holding the bike back unlike the real world where we have hills and wind and big trucks to slipstream.

When I was using Autotune on the 5 race bikes I found that it was best not to allow it to make AFR changes bigger than 5% or below 40% throttle and to always save a copy of the original map as it did go tits up quite regularly, if you accidently accepted any wrong fuelling changes it tended to snowball from there and the map would end up being completely wrong because the power commander would try to interpolate between a correct figure in 1 cell with an incorrect figure in the next and then try to correct it the next time which made matters worse.

I won't get into an argument on how to map bikes on the dyno as people have there own ideas and I know mine is the correct way to do it LOL

Well said Simon