Starting issues - HELP please
 

Hi all,

I've been having intermittent starting issues - the bike is used for commuting, so I'm desperate to get it back on the road asap.

Two weeks ago, temperatures were at -4, bike started once, was idling badly and eventually died. Wouldn't restart (Battery was fine but used leads anyway) had to call the RAC, checked all plugs and spark - fine. eventually got bike going - easy start was used but I think luck had more to do with it.

The local garage had the bike for a week and couldn't find the problem. Alarm has been disconnected as it was overriding fault codes and not displaying them. Only error was 30 which I believe means it was dropped. code was wiped and bike seemed to be starting ok until it rained, then nothing. Dried off over night - bike started fine again. Garage tried to replicate this - no luck, wet as you like, bike still started. They admitted defeat :-(

The rev counter runs at around 600 when successfully starting the bike and I've seen 200-500 revs when it's not started. It sounds so close to starting but never "catches".

-RAC man thought it was dirty fuel.
-Friend thought it was dirty throttle plate - used FI cleaner spray and the bike was ok for a week. (also ran a fuel cleaner through and have since refuelled.
-Garage thought it was the alarm.

I don't get the engine warning light or any error codes.

I'm thinking it might have something to do with this http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?...light=starting
But it's a lot of work just to take a look. Has anyone else got ideas?

Many thanks,

Chris

for starters you want to see around 1500rpm when warm so maybe a low idle speed.

from what your saying with the rain i'd be thinking a bad connection somewhere.

any mods on the bike?

Sorry Simon, I should have been clearer I was referring to the revs made by the starter engine if/ when it does start the revs sit at 1600.

Incidentally it did start again later in the day. Eventually kicked in and sat at 2000 revs before coming down to its usual. I was riding In the rain and green laning. So would have got a proper soaking this afternoon. I'll try and start it again in a few hours when it's cold again. My worry is it won't start at 6am as its that bit colder...


Oh it's an 09 model and I believe it had that loom issue sorted.
Mods: 2in1 MTC Exhaust, scotoiler, meta alarm (now disconnected). And heated grips. Part from the oiler, all mods were on the bike at purchase last April.

It does occasionally stall in town, generally when I'm filtering (great fun -not). I've always put it down to being in the wrong gear, but maybe it's connected to this.
Can anyone recommend a bike electrics specialist in London or Herts?

Thanks again

I sympathise mate, my bike is also my toy and my workhorse so understand, has anyone checked for vacuum leaks on the scotty?

are the battery terminals nice and tight? has anyone checked the CCA on the battery? do you know the bikes service history? i.e. valves, plugs etc.

if you've the time and tools it'd save you some time and money just running around checking your connector blocks.

I assume yours is a Z

First check all the basic stuff (which it sounds like you have): Fresh fuel, decent plug/decent spark, clean airbox/airfilter, decent battery output and as Simon mentioned: Good battery connections and no vacuum leaks on the Scottoiler plumbing (or anywhere else for that matter).

You say it is intermittent? It does sound a bit like the injector wiring abrasion issue? Could also be symptomatic of a dicky fuel pump too? However, the fact that "wet" is involved makes it sounds more likely a dodgy connection, frayed cable or exposed conductor.

I think it would be worth (despite the hassle) removing the fuel tank and checking the condition of the injector wiring - if it is that, it's an easy fix. Whilst it is off you can have a good scout around the rest of the loom and the connectors which are prone on XTs to furring up with corrosion, particularly ignition and fuel pump.

Some things you can check without removing the tank: The crank position sensor coupler is worth a look too, just behind the rear brake reservoir, as are the connections on the main relay under the seat. Also check the operation of the clutch switch and side stand switches/connectors because they can cause non-starting trouble. Check the lean angle tip-over switch and connectors too.

Before you do anything, can you check the following/answer these questions... (1) Does it only fail to start (when the fault is present), or does it cut out intermittently when it's running too? You say it's stalled in town, is that just when setting off or actually while riding? (2) When you turn the ignition on, can you hear the fuel pump priming? Does the pump prime when it is in it's non-starting state?

Thanks for all the tips guys - I'm not so sure it is a wet issue thoough, as the bike is either parked in a car port or a garage - it might get a few drops every now and then in the car port but not a soaking.

Temperature seems more likely: following my successful 2pm start and ride earlier (bike didn't start at 11am), I parked up at 3:30, started it again at 6ish (no problems) tried and failed to start at 8pm.

I like the sound of CCA, had a quick scan and it seems in line with the symptoms (lower revs from the starter motor at colder temperatures). I'll call the garage to see if they tested CCA. I'm tempted to buy a new battery if the garage didn't test. How does that sound? However, that doesn't explain why it cut out after starting on the very cold day (before calling the RAC) when it first wouldn't start.

Pleiades, the pump always primes and I've taken to waiting until everything on the dash has settled down before starting.
No fault codes have appeared on turning the ignition on, I tried and failed to get into diagnostic mode (will double check and try again). When it's cut out mid ride, it always starts immediately - don't even need to put my feet down.

Thanks again.

Does seem to sound like a battery issue then. What's the voltage across the two terminals when the battery has rested overnight? Try measuring it at different ambient temperatures too. It's not an ideal test, but it'll give you some idea whether you've got a sulfate problem and/or a partially shorted cell.

What oil you got in the bike? If it's too viscous it will affect cold cranking to some degree.

Unfortunately there is no diagnostic function built into the Tenere's dash (unlike X/R models). You need to buy a plug in diagnostic tool to do any testing. They cost around �80.

It is an XTZ.

The garage claims to have checked all connectors twice - but I suppose there's nothing like being thorough yourself...

I've tried to access the diagnostic mode again, this time with the kill switch off, ignition off, both buttons pressed and held; ignition on, keep holding, nothing...

Read my last post again. There is no diagnostic mode on the XTZ!! ;)

Just saw your post re diagnostics.

I use halfords 10/40.

My neighbour has a voltmeter - I'll test tomorrow PM.

If I order a battery now and try it once, would they still take it back if that's not the problem? I'm thinking of going with WEMOTO - fast delivery. Also, is there that much of a difference in quality? Does twice the price = twice as good?

Battery Motobatt Sealed High Torque � 48.65
Battery Nitro � 35.54
Battery Pattern � 30.97
Battery Yuasa � 59.10

What would you buy?

To a degree, you do pay for what you get with batteries. Motobatt are good, and my original Yuasa in the Z is still going strong after six and half years. Don't know about Nitro?

I reckon, if you're careful not to mark the battery and you claim "it didn't fit", you'd get away with sending it back?

Check the resting voltage first on the one you've got. Make sure the bike hasn't run and charged it for at least 24 hours, so the voltage will have dropped to its baseline level. Even better, disconnected it for 24 hours, so you can be sure there's no spurious drain on it from the bike's immobiliser/clock/dash back-up. Anything from 12.5V and up is good, 12.3/12.4 is OK, but marginal and anything less than that is poor.

Many thanks, I'll test tomorrow.

So, the bike started at 6am this morning rather than rely on the train and spend �19 for the pleasure, I took the bike up on it's offer to take me to work.

I know this will mess with battery voltage readings.

If the bike were a person, I'd say it lacked confidence when it started - it was fast, but not straight away and I didn't think it would kick in.

So voltage readings at 19:30 (3degC)
Off = 13.16V
Ignition on = 12.94V
Engine Running 13.88V
Whilst starting = around 10.15V

All looks pretty healthy - I'll keep testing and riding. Come the weekend, I'll give it the 24hr no use unless it fails to start before then.

The garage was closed today so couldn't ask if they did a CCA test.

Thanks,

Chris

Those figures do indeed look alright.

Be interesting to see how much of a voltage drop you get after it's stood for a while though?

It will be, I'll keep riding and monitoring - I'll report back if anything changes. Come the weekend, i'll get my hands dirty too.

Thanks for all your help gents - I'd like to say that's the bike sorted - but deep down inside I know it can't be.

So....

Started fine Tue & Wed (Monday wasn't instant).

Today (Wed) I had rain - started fine, thought to myself the bike seems to be running very well. 1/2 way along a 20min motorway ride I notice the engine stutters badly above 4k revs (scary at 70mph). Keep revs low and try to relax.

Get to the end of the motorway and it decides to stutter at idle - worried it will cut out, so rev hard to keep it going. 10mins later at Henley's Corner, the engine cuts out and won't restart. 3rd or 4th go it restarts but pulling throttle seems to decrease revs (???) engine finally behaves and I keep revving at traffic lights just in case. By the time I get to work at Spitalfields 20mins later it idles as thought there was never a problem. Switch off engine and successfully restarts.

Argh!

Oh and the battery's been keeping it's charge too. Only took readings when off and ignition on - At 6am I don't fancy faffing about with noise any longer than necessary.

Best get that tank off and check the injector wiring. Beginning to sound very much like that could be the root of your woes?

Boohoo,I thought you'd say that.

I've seen what I'm looking for, if the cable is still there can I just use some heat shrink casing on it, then put some foam between the cable and the frame and it could be ok?

How long would it take your average joe to remove the tank?

Anyone know of large Jerry can suppliers?

Thanks again.

Chris

Assuming it is the injector spur, you should be able to repair any damage to the wires quite easily. You may have to peel back some of the looms wrapping to get enough slack to play with. Use solder to repair the conductor (if required) and heat shrink or self-amalgamating tape to repair the insulation. Once repaired it would be wise to fit a foam pad like the original link you saw to this fault ( http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?t=23331).

I reckon (if its your first time) it takes about half an hour to remove the tank and about the same to put it back. You do not need to necessarily drain the tank into a Jerry can as the pipe union on the pump body is self-sealing; the only issue is the weight. If you've got half a tank of fuel or less you will be able to man-handle it. With a full tank it's still possible, but 23 litres of fuel weighs about 20Kg!

Here's a good thread to guide you through removing and refitting the tank...

http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?t=8876

So, tank came off today - it looks as though there is no damage to the cabling for the FI. I've added padding to the potential wear areas.
I tried to look at the connection for the regulator rectifier, but struggled to get it off.
Washed the bike with a pressure washer (always do) Bike started no problem.

Battery was still good after 36 hours.

So back to square 1 - not sure if it's cold or wet that causes problems....

So, It's been warmer and drier since I last posted...

It's mostly been starting without problems.

I've been under the tank twice, noticed some exposed wiring 2nd time round - not the two cables that clip into the tank, but the clip that sits in front of the snorkel. It has a red/blue and red/black cable, the red/black had missing insulation. Covered it with self fusing tape, put the bike back together. I thought I sorted it.

Starting was interesting - revs increased in slow motion and eventually it started.

Heavy rain on commute to work and the stuttering kicked in at 70 mph / 4500rpm. Eventually it stalled and would only restart after a rest and 5/6 attempts. Then continued without problems and started fine.

I'm all out of ideas. :-(

Has anyone got recommendations for an electrical specialist in Herts or London?

Thanks again,

Chris

How much attention have you directed at testing the coil and HT lead? Breakdown of the HT side of the ignition can be attributed to dampness and to temperature. It can also cause bad starting, stuttering and miss-firing, all of which can quite often be intermittent. Worth a further look?

How about the spark plug? Have you tried a different one? There are a lot of fake NGKs about on ebay, especially iridium types which cause bizarre and random symptoms.

Get one of those squirty bottles filled with water and with the bike idling good give the HT side a soaking.

Be careful and do a small bit at a time plug, ht cap, cap/ht cable joint etc etc. give each bit a soaking wait a bit and check bike is still running ok

Traced a breakdown in the insulation of the coil HT lead joint on my TTR like this would have never seen it otherwise.

Run it in the garage at night with the lights out. Have a good look around the HT side of things.
Any arcing is easy to spot, do the water spraying over things as well. Good luck.

Hadn't spent any time testing I'm afraid - bike maintenance is still pretty new to me. Only had it just under a year - so baby steps.

Wouldn't start again this morning - today I had thick fog!

I think I'm getting somewhere!

Sprayed various connections that had been mentioned throughout the post whilst the engine was running.

The engine stalled almost immediately when I wet the coil. Wouldn't start again - got out the blow drier - started fine. Sprayed coil and stalled again. Dried and started fine. Went for a spin - no probs. Sprayed coils with a hot engine for around 30 secs and couldn't stall the engine, no stuttering or otherwise. Had to stop there as it was dark outside and I do like my neighbours.

I need to do more spray testing - it does seem to be the coil end of things, how precisely should I be aiming or does the whole coil count as a unit and aiming widely at it is all I need.

If it is the coil, is this something I can repair, or should I replace it. Could I swap this myself. I haven't yet found a coil to buy, are they only available via dealers? How much money am I looking at?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm over the moon I finally replicated the issue and am eager to sort this out.

Thanks again everyone!

The coil is a sealed unit and is not serviceable. However, the HT lead and the plug cap can be replaced separately with non-Yamaha items fairly cheaply. So it might be worth seeing if you can isolate whether it's the coil pack, HT lead or cap. Most of the trouble seems to come from the coil to HT lead joint, so focus on that area if you can.

Yamaha want about �85 for a new coil (with HT lead pre-fitted) and a further �40 for the plug cap! As any decent silicone HT lead cut to length will work, along with an NGK or other decent plug cap are not expensive, it is probably worth changing them out first?

You can get Nology high performance coils and HT leads, but they work out only fractionally cheaper the Yamaha, although the are probably better?

Don't forget as well that spraying the whole area with water mist will also show up a plug with a faulty ceramic insulator, as any leakage will trace through to earth with the damp. On a hot engine the plug's insulator will be less likely to leak to earth in the wet as it will by very hot and the water will evaporate almost instantaneously. This could be a reason why you could make it stall cold, but not hot? Try a new plug.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/o...kmoto/Coil.jpg

Go from 1 to 4 my moneys on 3

+1 That's the point where I have had a problem in the past.

Riding in snow and slush, the water was coming off the radiator and getting that joint wet. Try starting the engine and touching that joint when wet, I guarantee a bit of a jolt!:icon_eek:

Hmm, I've tried a few times to replicate the fault without success. Only managed twice last Monday.

Not even with a cold engine, could I get it to stall. Tried focussed water sprays at no. 3 as well as drenching everything around the coil and spark plug.

Could it be that the ambient temperature needs to be low as well as the wet?