New engine oil change at 100 km
 

I read long ago , here :

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/NewBike.html

quote :

"When you take out your factory oil, if you hold it up in the sunlight you'll see the color is very good, it looks almost completely unused, but you'll see lots of reflections from metal flakes in the oil. These flakes are very bad for your engine, and can clog up your oil filter so that your filter bypass is activated, meaning you effectively don't have an oil filter. Notice that the factory says you should still be using the factory oil and oil filter. I think this is insane. "



that the first couple hours running a new engine would generate a huge amount of metallic sludge that it would be good to get rid of as soon as possible. I've applied this to the new honda XR 250 I bought a few years ago and now to my new T�n�r�, but this time the result was much more visible. The oil was a metallic grey and it seems the filter was already overwhelmed by the amount of metal that it picked up. I suppose that running the bike up to the regular 1000 km first oil change with that kind of sludge in the motor wouldn't be a good thing to do (think of all the finely machined parts, such as bearings). Let the pictures speak for themselves : The filter at 100 km first oil change :

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg836...pg&res=landing

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg685...pg&res=landing




Lineup of filters from 100, 200 and 500 km oil changes :

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg252...pg&res=landing

Thanks for the info I am sure some of the guys will find it interesting.

I hope you used mineral oil in the motor during the running in period, otherwise you could have problems with oil usage on your XT motor, these motors have chrome bores & need mineral oil to bed the rings in.

Looking at your link, I disagree with using synthetic oil in a chrome bore while running in the motor XT660 motor & I speak for 32 years experience of being a mechanic, from your link there are so many holes in the mans statements it is a joke, one being a he considers a modern motorcycle motor anything from 1985, please where have you been, engine materials have changed so much in the last 10 years & the oils have progreed so much as well, you can't say every motor in the world needs the same running procudure that is rubbish.

If there were no signs of metal in your oil I would be surprised as this is quite normal for a motor that is ruining in. The XT filters are designed to run past 10000kms/60000miles you are waisting you money replacing them every 100kms during the running in period.

Not getting up you, there is no problem changing oil at any time interval just be carefull what you read on the internet.

Didn't know about synthetic oil being bad for seating the rings, living & learning. I use Motul 5100, semi-synthetic, but since that went in only after the first hours running the engine, much of the seating would already have occurred, or at least that is what i'd like to think. Anyway, the oil and filter both looked so bad after 100 km I decided to change again at 200 to see what would come out, and this time around it may have been unnecessary, but still i'm glad that first oil wasn't in the engine for very long. It's a small expense compared to what a new bike costs, and it doesn't hurt to be on the safe side. It's also interesting to notice that even so the 500 km filter looks slightly better than the 200 km one. And yes, surely oil filters are designed to last a long time, but that's under normal operating conditions.

Interestingly, these frequent oil/filter changes for new engines are recommended elsewhere, as here for example:

http://www.sacoriver.net/~red/breakin.html

The oil filter is there to catch all the metal particles, the oil will not break down during the running in period, if there was a problem we would see it in the industry.

As mentioned I have been a in the motor industry for 32 years & have never seen any problems running the oil & filter to the recommended service interval. I deal with 90 to 100 vehicles a day in the workshop I run, we sell around 150 units a month, if there was a problem we would see it.

I think these articles put fear into riders, I wonder how many motors these guys are stripping a week to test there theory's long term.

In your last link the man is talking about chokes & jetting we left carburetors many years ago, I would like to see him measure crankcase pressure on a 2 stroke when running it in.

I changed my OE oil at 1000km with mineral 15w50 Yamaha oil due to being 12 months old (bike was a dealer demo). Then at 2500km I changed to full synthetic Motul 300v so far at the 4000km mark the oil level is unchanged. I think 10000km on a mineral oil is a bit too much for the oil, the mineral oil that had done 1500km was discoloured and smelt like it needed to be changed. Now that the Motul has done 1500km it has hardly discoloured and doesn't smell bad either, another 1000km and it will be changed.

This is coffee filter paper that a beaker of the first oil drained through; it's clear to see that there's plenty of fine metal in the oil, the oil filter nonwithstanding.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg197...pg&res=landing

A friend of mine I talked about this with, having worked for a bearing manufacturer, told me about the very strict quality control procedure there concerning metal residues that might be left over from the machining process, and he found it quite possible that in this case this oil containing metal particles would be damaging to the bearings in the engine in the long run. I would definitely flush that out as soon as I could.

Still it is reassuring to learn that no significant problems have been noted with the standard procedure.

Just speculating, that might be because the hard metal filings coming from the crankcase (that could really cause damage) would indeed be efficiently caught by the oil filter, and this greyish matter still present in the oil, being softer metal (from the cylinder wall maybe ?) would not be so harmful.

If it came from the cyilinder, well that would mean my rings have set properly, wouldn't it ?

On run in most of the metal would be coming from the gearbox. Personally I think the change at 100km was a bit of a overkill maybe 500km for the first, but it is hard to go past your pictures of the filters stacked up against each other. Would have been interesting to have the oils analysed at the 100km, 200km and 500km oil changes to see contaminates in the oil. I do agree with Kev in saying that mineral oil should have been used in the run in period. Another note would be the run in period would vary dependent on the individual person and bike.

Quite so, the famous (or infamous) Motoman will tell you to ride it hard at break-in :

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I think his argument makes sense, namely that it is the pressure inside the cylinder that forces the rings against the wall and that therefore babying the engine will not seat the rings. It has been noted however that because of the metal in the oil at this stage, running the engine at high revs will force this debris all the more into bearings and other nooks and crannies. So probably it would be best to change the oil after 20 miles, as he says by then most of the wearing will already have taken place, and then only run hard to seat the rings.

Quite a fine art really.



Incidentally, the same advice as to changing the oil frequently during this period can be found there, quote :

" Q: What's the third most common cause of engine problems ???
A: Not changing the oil soon enough after the engine is first run !!

Change Your Oil Right Away !!
The best thing you can do for your engine is to change your oil and filter after the first 20 miles. Most of the wearing in process happens immediately, creating a lot of metal in the oil. Plus, the amount of leftover machining chips and other crud left behind in the manufacturing process is simply amazing !! You want to flush that stuff out before it gets recycled and embedded in the transmission gears, and oil pump etc...

Why do the manufacturers recommend waiting until 600 miles to
flush out all the loose metal ???

This is a good question ... "



Another thing worth getting rid of that I remember having read about is the casting sand residue that will always be present in a new engine.

Just on this...when I first bought an XR400 new...the handbook stated run the engine in for 25kms as far as I can remember....

There you have it.....

After that change the oil and ride as normal...

Just say'in like...

:)

when i got my XT660Z from the dealers i ran it 300km then changed the oil to Motul 10-50W, replaced the oil filter and switched to a OEM magnetic drain plug. There was fine metal shavings and "sludge" all from engine break in.. 2nd oil change was done at 1100km, removing the magnetic plug i discovered a buildup of more particles around the tip however the oil filter was not covered in as much metal.

i think the manuals 1000km is a bit long winded.. JMO

My 2 pennies worth:
1) Yamaha engineers are WAY better qualified to recommend maintenance schedules & oil specifications than most of us here, so I think its best to go by the owners manual.
2) What Kev says is true about oil technology moving ahead over the past 10 years. I think you could probably go for double the oil change interval without causing damage, assuming regular riding.
3) The oil filter will of course be covered in particles: that is precisely its function & doubtless has been designed to work even in worst case conditions when it looks clogged up

If this was such a big deal, wouldn't there be far more engine failures etc. accross the industry? Furthermore, how long does the OP think he'll keep his bike? Will this attention to detail really enhance its residual value or make the bike much more powerful? I like to look after stuff & follow maintenance procedures etc., but changing oil after 100km seems like overkill....

+1. For the first time ever I left the oil in my bike to 1000km, as per the book. Imo this was a big mistake. The oil stank and was grey, and the filter had (unsurprisingly) stacks of metal in it. And I have a rattly motor, which I attribute to not doing a 250km oil change.

Regardless of obeying the law, my bike uses a small amount of oil after 3000km (about 5mm on the dipstick). That's on a motor only 14k old.

No arguments with anyone about using mineral oil after an early change up to 1000km. Best to be safe there, I reckon.

If the oil was Grey it has been contaminated with moisture.

Next month I am on my 45th new motorcycle & can honestly say I have never had one problem running my motors to the manufactures 1000km service interval.

Most problems are caused by not using a engine, ride the **** out of it don't leave it in the garage collecting moister.:075:

Hehe well my 2 penny worth.....I used to work for Land Rover in Solihull and I saw the engines being built and I frequently talked to the builders. In the old days running in was vital as tolerances, materials and oils were not like they are now. Today every engine is run before it is fitted to a car (or a bike) so running in is no longer important as it was 30 years ago (perhaps when that article was written). I too have had umpteem bikes new and used over the past 25 years and engine problems have NEVER featured. Ride on!!!!

experience of high mileage engines
 

Modern vehicles have far too high a service interval. I can explain why this is (its all down to fleet purchases and "green" credentials) if you want, however I can only repeat what 2 different motor engine oil technologist / chemists have told me.. (Interdependent oil manufactures.)

"NO engine oil will stay in spec beyond 8,000 miles" (approx 10,000 k)

I have experience of over 40 years running very high mileage engines (more recently in taxi's)

We are regularly seeing total engine failures at 75,000 miles or less on vehicles serviced to manufactures service intervals.

Changing oil at 10,000 miles instead of the recommended 12,000 miles extends the engine life to about 100,000 to 120,000 miles.

Changing the oil at 8,000 miles or less gives 250,000 miles + and still counting.

So if you feel like changing your oil.. go for it ;)

You will do no harm to the engine. ;)

If you want to confirm what I am saying ask any Ford mechanic about the standard problems with the 1600cc diesel engine in the Ford Focus? Citroen use the same engine and exactly the same happens..

I am currently running 2 Fiat Doblo taxi's which get thrashed 16 hours a day.. They get an oil change every 7 / 8,000 miles

According to the manufacturer (Fiat) the 1600cc 16 valve should be changed at 21k to 25,000 miles for 1st service! But they only guarantee the engine for 60,000 miles (100K)

At 6,000 the oil had thickened and was like double cream and was grey with metal fragments!

Both taxis run noticeably better and give more Miles to the gallon after the service.. indicating lower wear on the engine.

The cost of the oil is more than made back with better MPG.

PS I flush the engines each time too. ;) so far only had one engine failure at 333,250 miles on a petrol turbo engine, and I'm still annoyed at that.! :cry[1]:

Did 154.000km so far on 2009 Tenere, oil change according to schedule. At 90.000km it started consuming oil at that time I only added and not replaced the oil. Around 130.000 the oil consumption became >1l/1000km. I replaced the piston rings and valve seals. Oil consumption became negligible.

No conclusions just my story.

BTW I am using the cheapest mineral oil I can find (2euro/L)

Wow - Very impressive and gives us mere mortals something to aim at and certainly no reason to trade in an XT with less than 100k on the clock!

Good effort that man.

Sorry about the late reply - away at work.

I can't match your total Kev - I'm about to take delivery of only my 33rd new bike this week. I can confidently say that the worst oil I've ever seen or smelt came out of my Tenere at 1000km, and the grey was metal, not coolant or other liquid, as there's been no repeat performance.

So, whether I'm right or wrong, my new bike will be getting its oil and filter dumped at 200km, and refilled with mineral until 1000 rolls around.

Having said that, I respect your experience, and that of the amazing Niek, who has proved that we all get too alarmed about oil!

Can't help it. Oil addict. I need oilaholics anonymous.

No harm in over servicing a motor.

I see 500 cars a week through my garage that I run & have been in the motor trade for 33 years & speak from first hand experience not here say, the brand I work for have their first service (oil change) at 15000kms & we have no engine failures due to poor engine conditions. If I feared there was any problem with time or distance oil changes I would be the first person to warn everyone, these days I am playing with +$20K priced motorcycles if for one min I thought there was problems with the oil or filters not lasting the service interval I would be the first person telling everyone to change their oil sooner & ignore the engineers & manufactures as they do not know what they are talking about.

Only 45..bit of a late starter were yer...:wow:

Just got bike 45 3 weeks ago & have already put my name down for No 46 early next year.

Good grief! A very fine effort, Kev. No such thing as too many motorbikes imo.