UK - Learner Drivers on the Motorway ?
 

This topic is bound to divide opinion..... :rant2:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/17093564


What do you think ?

Personally, I'd like to see the introduction of a multi tier licence, firstly so people can get out on the roads and gain valuable experience, then a second tier to allow people to drive in darkness/adverse weather/motorways and a third tier to allow people to drive more powerful cars. Clearly, adverse weather is a tricky one...... you might set out in good weather etc etc.

I've recently been getting some instruction in the art of 'driver instruction', mainly to help my daughter get ready for her test (she isn't a natural driver, but she is learning and improving - practice practice practice...) , rather than looking at a career change! And when you do this properly, it's quite an eye opener and certainly lets you appreciate the fears and apprehensions a learner drive has to contend with. This is without impatient, bad and at times dangerous driving by some who seam to think they are 'good drivers' (even after I had him landed with a section 59.. in-car video is a great driver aid...)
I can't see putting a learner on the motorway is going to do anything to their confidence, other than destroy it in an instant. My view is you need to be able to drive a car without thinking about it before even considering the motorway.

But that's just my view, what do you think ?

Not sure what my opinion is on this yet, although my first thought is:

Why would learner drivers be any more dangerous on the motorway than on a non-motorway dual-carriageway?

In many ways, the motorway is safer - wider lanes, hard shoulder, etc. That works both ways though, you could make the argument that people can be given experience of multi-lane NSL dual-carriageways under the law as it stands.

I'm all for tiered licences. In Belgium already learner drivers are not allowed to drive during the night and weekends. I certainly wouldn't mind that be continued for some time even after they get their license.
Same for more powerful cars. At the moment there's only a rule that under 21 can't ride a +25kW motorcycle. I would applaud if that rule be expanded to anyone's first year(s) of riding after getting their license. And expand it to cars as well. It is utterly silly that an 20-year old cannot ride a +25kW motorcycle but can without any problems get into a Ferrari and go street racing.

I don't really agree with you about the motorways. It is perfectly legal for learner drivers to ride motorways in Belgium and it does not cause any problems. In my experience, having taught 2 people to drive motorways are probably one of the easier roads to drive on. The speed may be higher, but there's a lot less things to keep rack of. No oncoming traffic, no traffic lights, no intersections, no cyclists or pedestrians, ... My experience is that learner drivers find driving in the city a lot more stressful and difficult.

Further to this, and since you were fishing for a rant, I'd like to propose that at the start of every driving test, the learner should be asked to explain what a dual-carriageway is, and immediately failed if they make any comment about number of lanes.

Not at all, this place is full of experienced road users, seeking an opinion among peers is the cornerstone of a balanced view. duibhceK has pointed out some things I did not consider, however road manners on the mainland roads are far more acceptable than those in the UK, so this needs consideration also.



,,,,, there is a question in the theory test concerning 'dual carriageway' definition.

Yet I would bet there are people on this forum, old and young, who would get it wrong.


(I'm not seriously suggesting that this is the most serious flaw in the current driving test system by the way ;))

Yup. Agreed.

hi, just to add.
here in N ireland we also have a different approach, after passing the test a driver has to display 'R' plates[restricted] they are not supposed to exceed 45mph, are allowed access to all road types and do not require a qualified driver to be in the vehicle. this is for a year after passing the test

I think it is a good system, better than the mainland, pass the test and then full bore get into the full road network- not good, also experienced drivers have no idea that the newly graduated driver has little or no experience, at least the 'R' plate can allow a little leeway

i think it's mental to allow a 'new' driver straight access to motorways even a compulsary cbt type thingy would be more appropiate [no dictionary at hand]

A point to remember is that learner car drivers cannot drive a car by themselves without an instructor or qualified driver. What this proposal gives is motorway training before they can pass the driving test but must be with a qualified instructor. As such the instructor would be able to decide if the learner was competant enough to tackle motorway driving.

A bigger issue is the fact that learners are allowed on the road without ANY prior experience or ability with a non-qualified instructor in a non-dual controlled car.

Maybe motorway training should be obligitory AFTER passing the driving test but CBT MUST be obligitory before being allowed on the road with L-plates.

Once learners have passed their test I think a restricted licence is what todays roads need.

Might be a bit tricky to make that one work in some areas - there aren't any motorways here in Norfolk! It's 70 miles to the nearest motorway from where I live - you'd have to pay for nearly four hours of instructor time just to get there and back, never mind actually getting some experience on the motorway! There are a lot of folk here who've never been on a motorway, in fact I'm sure some don't even no what one looks like!

True - the report states that there are no plans to make motorway training compulsory citing the difficulty of those in more rural areas. I was kind of reflecting on suggestions that have been made in the past (IAM?). My main concern is CBT.

I agree with you on a CBT style prequel to the driving test. I don't understand why what the government (and EU) thinks is good for learner motorcyclists shouldn't apply to cars (power restrictions, basic off-road training etc.)

I can understand why in the mainland UK it would be more of a worry as in Northern Ireland weve very little motorways with most only being 2 lanes.

Personally i think no its not a good idea, it will cause accidents not the learner themselves but from people who get annoyed behind them as they pull on the motorway or generally coming behind them, having to slow down and then try and over take into the middle lane which always seems to be bunged up.

Then you get into a section of road where all the traffic is in the outside two lanes and no one except the learner on the inside lane, causing more potentual for accidents.

So let the powers that be get all the articulated lorries, old fogies, classic cars etc. off the motorways as well......

Regardless of how much we like to have free flowing roads, sometimes we just have to slow down. Is seeing/reacting to/being held up by a slower vehicle ahead - beit a learner, lorry, OAP or whatever - any worse than a motorcyclist having to look out for wet manhole covers/oversized banding/potholes on the apex of a bend, in the dark, in the pouring rain and holding up cars in the process?

In any case, you kind of hope that an instructor wouldn't take a learner on to a motorway if they weren't ready for it.

Half (or quite possibly MOST) of the problem is as Keithblade pertained to - that there's not enough tolerence, respect or understanding on the roads. And why is it that common sense isn't...um........err.........COMMON!!!




IPSGA!!!!!!!

I must admit that I do not have a lot of experience on UK motorways. I did Folkestone to Shrewsbury and back last year, but did not notice any special difference in the behavior of motorists compared to the dense busy motorways in Belgium and the Netherlands.

So that begs the question for me: why would it be so much more dangerous to allow learner drivers on motorways in the UK? It does not seem to pose any problems on the continent.

I guess it's because UK motorways are a lot busier and more congested than most of those in mainland Europe....

I've had allot of experience riding on the 'other side' of the road, be it Poland, Romania, France, Spain, Benelux, Scandinavia to name but a small portion. Driving standards, rules, accepted rules, etc vary. But one thing that stands out, that draws a distinct line between mainland Europe and the UK is tolerance and attitude. Busy is busy, but busy with intolerance is very different.

Probably, with the exception of Northern Italy (where every 2nd car has crash damage), the UK has by and large the worse driving attitude I have ever seen. In the OP I mentioned one incident, this was at 10:00 on a Sunday morning, quiet roads, and involved a stall at a roundabout. An incident that held someone up for maybe 30 seconds, but the attitude and reaction of the other driver was typical, it's only because I recorded the event that he received a warning. But this type of thing happens every day in the UK and goes unpunished time and time again.

Typically, what we have to deal with is;

none-use of indicators,
tailgating (drivers following too close)
inappropriate use of speed
lack of forward planning, reaction driving
Lack of respect for others

I'll bet every UK based driver/rider on here has experienced one of these in the last day or so.

So what you have on the Motorways is intolerance, bad attitude and high speed. Combine that with an inexperienced driver and it is a situation I wouldn't want to be in.

I would suggest you're already in that situation Darren and have been for a while.
It's not necessarily the lack of experience of learners that's a problem - it's the lack of everything: control, confidence, understanding etc.
Which is why I suggest CBT is an absolute MUST before new learners are allowed on any road let alone motorway.

But we should also bear in mind:

One never stops learning.

One is merely taught to pass a test.

And clearly, some drivers seam to have got their licence free with a packet of cereals!

I agree with every word :eusa_wall:

Hmm.......I feel a Number 10 ePetition coming on.
(For CBT, that is)

Who's the most elequent and fancies the task???

That does not sound any different from my daily commute. And the section of motorway I have to take is far from the busiest in this part of the country. Driver attitude does not seem to be better here than I experienced in the UK.

As for training and tests I do believe the Netherlands have a pretty good system set up. Several different exams (theoretical, practical, on road) at different times with many hours of compulsory training with a professional instructor in between.

The lack of continued training after the exams is a problem everywhere.

hi,
I think duibhceK has hit the nail on the head

Q ''As for training and tests I do believe the Netherlands have a pretty good system set up. Several different exams (theoretical, practical, on road) at different times with many hours of compulsory training with a professional instructor in between.''

if a learner has gone throught the extra elements and has the card 'marked' by a qualified instructor then the test pass can change the license from learner to full status, what you recon?

I have driven in the mainland, it's definately a less pleasent experience than here in Ireland N/S or mainland Europe. some folks definately need to take a chill pill, well certainly less caffine. as life is short enough without getting needlessly wound up!

stoic

Learners do.


I do.

:iamwithstupid:

but indeed hardly anyone signals any more.

To illustrate: here in Belgium public transport buses have priority over any other vehicle on the road when leaving the bus stop. But ONLY if they signal. Hardly any of them actually do and if they do it is only after they have started turning into the road, so too late to warn any vehicle that may be passing.

Yep, I understood that. Just trying to point out, that the least experienced (learners, not me!) are nearly always better behaved and have the right attitude but it's a shame with experience comes a reduction in attitude and introduction to bad behaviour, in the main part, there are always exceptions.

The trouble is, once you have you 'right to drive/ride' (licence) there is no requirement to to take any further training. Those who choose to take extra training are predisposed to be better riders/driver anyway, and it requires the right attitude to accept you are always learning. It's those who think they are good, never are.

Perhaps if they taught 'Driver Education' in schools, enforcing driving/riding as a privilege not a right then we might see a change through the generations, or we might not.

I pleased to say though, through my own experiences as a supervising driver, I have much more respect and patients with 'L' and 'P' plated cars. It's tough out there learning in these times.

hi, i've missed that one 'p' plate? is that like our 'r' restricted?

Yup,

I indicate when I need to;

when overtaking on the motorway I indicate to pull out to the right,

I DO NOT indicate to pull back in - sorry but where else am I going to go ?

I always give foreign LGV's an extra lane when i overtake sorry but seen to many blind spot RTC's to risk getting close to them.

Agree that new drivers are better than most.

we should have to re test every few years, yeah there would be costs involved but wouldnt it be great to get some of the crap drivers off our roads.

Why do most drivers sit in lane 2 or 3 on the motorway when lane 1 is empty is beyond me.

yup fact want good drivers goto Germany

and don't even get me started on what happens when we get 1 inch of snow fall. if you can't drive in the snow stay at home !:laughing11:

This drives me nuts Grrrrrrrrr........

Not to mention the stupid feckers that look you in the eye before pulling out on you, wouldn't mind but a Tenere with a noisy can is not the hardest thing to spot on the road.

If the police are strapped for cash why don't they send unmarked bikes out? They'd rake the cash in with all the numpties out there.

had a funny one in front of me this morning. Fancy-ass lease Volvo S60 company car changes lanes 4 times in front of me without indicating. But when we are off the motorway on a single lane road that has a bend he suddenly feels the need to use the indicator.

Maybe he was afraid I wouldn't see where the road was going or something :102:

more scary is when you see a vehicle on blues and twos and it has to sit behind a car in lane three for 30 seconds or more while the dumb driver chats away on their hands free kit in their own little world.

another great one to look out for is a car or van that sits tailgating a truck, when you go past just take one look they will have a phone to the ear and they honestly think they are covert ????